As an aside this is what's been going round in my head recently;

The entire downloading debacle / people expecting music for free / now thinking music is worth so little as it can be stolen easily really pisses me off tbh.

When it takes a few years of my life and thousands of hours of work to make a record there's almost no way any amount of "return" can really make up for that investment, be it pleasure, money, feeling of satisfaction. This is true of most art I guess.

Mithras albums take me a long time to write and get to a level I'm satisfied with creatively, technically, sonically. I don't ever want to release an album with my name on it which is just a collection of quickly knocked together riffs and samey arrangements that I'm not happy with, and I don't think real any fan would enjoy such a record either. Some bands can knock an album out in a few months (or less!) which is cool, but I generally find unless it's the work of some demented genius that the record is only deep as the amount of work that went into it (i.e usually not very). The best albums in all genres of music take over a year of work, with few exceptions (or very talented people doing it full time rather than the hobby which most extreme metal is).

Obviously, no one sane would go into extreme metal with the aim of "making" money, but on the other hand it's quite galling to think that had we got to the level we are at now and been around ten years ago, we might have actually made some kind of an "income" from what we've done. On the face of it we've been pretty fortunate and sold a decent number of records considering the downwards trend we were against. Around the time he left the band Rayner and me worked out (one drunken night) that we'd probably covered most of the costs from the first two records now, which is cool.

But when you factor in rapidly falling CD sales and (so far) pretty dismal sales of paid for downloads for extreme music (i.e. the main monetary returns a band receives to compensate them for the costs of writing and recording), you now have to essentially be prepared to make music, bear all the costs of recording yourself and give it away for nothing. Ontop of this you have to put a brave face on people regularly telling you music is worth nothing, uploading and sharing your music for free (and quoting stupid figures about downloading and saying inane things about musicians being "greedy"). Some people simply don't buy CDs when they have the option to download them for nothing which is an indisputable fact.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while the internet has enabled loads of artists who would previously never had an audience to achieve a potentially worldwide audience from their bedroom, it's hit mid level bands really hard as their return has dried up. Being a mid level band (i.e not just a bedroom one) you're expected to have a certain production standard, a certain quality level and are subject to standards that people don't always apply to lower level bands, potentially a fanbase and critics to please...

All that I've said above changes the nature of the game for me and means I need to reevaluate how much time and effort I can put into another Mithras record and what format it'll be released in; as I don't have unlimited amounts of money or time (or goodwill). I need to really decide if Mithras is going to go down the "signing to another label route" or do self-releases or perhaps not release any more music for the meantime and concentrate on the festival shows we have in the pipeline, which we all enjoy....

well said Leon, I know these concerns very well. When a band really impresses me and catches my attention I will always support and buy their albums/shirts, help them on tour etc.
It is a sad state of affairs that everyone can download everything for the most part with on respect for the time and $$ that goes into it. If anything it's nice to be able to preview an album so you can hear whats out there and then buy it if it's really worth buying. Seems like if you werent out of FL or NY in the 90's and have a huge fanbase by now it is rather difficult to get the ball rolling & make an actual living off extreme metal ie Cannibal, Deicide, Morbid etc...people should at least be supporting the bands they dl by going to the shows. Good music is what floats my boat and always has so as long as we have exceptional muscians out there like in Mithras I will always support

Here here

I've never have & never will download mithras or any of my other favourite band's releases. I must admit however over the last 3 years I had to download a fair chunk of the music I listen to, due to having no money ect..

I don't agree with downloading music at all, it kills a massive part of the experience (hypocritical I know). There's nothing better than going out & buying a cd/vinyl & bringing it home, smelling the booklet & having a read through all the notes & lyrics.
Even better for me is ordering music & getting that almighty giffy bag through your letter box or even better through the door after ordering shit loads of CD's, shirts & vinyls. Then watching your collection grow over the years & having everything in alphabetical order on a nice CD shelf.. But yea im going off on one... Long story short you can't beat owning the real thing..

All you get is 6-12 song files, maybe some scanned in cover & that's it with downloading, it just doesn't cut it. The packaging/artwork/layout of an album is as important as the music, owning it in the 'flesh' is a great feeling. I've found with the music I downloaded I didn't appreciate it half as much as I would have done had I bought the proper product. Also watching my CD collection remain the same for almost the last 4 years really is a shame, but im back on track now & buying again THANK FUCK.

For me musical formats are cassette, vinyl, CD, (live??). Mp3 doesn't qualify a solid musical format in my opinion.

i don't understand ipods either, I don't like them at all.. I prefer to hear my surroundings when im out anyway!

A friend downloaded Gateways... back in 2000 as someone leaked it a month pre release and there was nothing put online in advance. I remember it well, the hours of him waiting for the sodding mp3s to come online (when I wanted to play network games), then waiting for someone to make them available and be online (how different to today when its so fast). He ended up with most of the record, but missing a few tracks and the result was a spectacularly dissapointing listening experience. I actually deleted my copies a day later as the entire process was so unenjoyable and anti climatic. When the real record turned up I had a totally different experience thankfully.

So while I can partly understand why people would download an album before release if they're a mega fan, why not just wait until it comes out and make do with the previews the band puts online? The only way it becomes available pre-release normally is because some cunt decides to "do the band a favour" by uploading it. This type of behaviour unfortunately makes it more acceptable to download illegally for whatever reason.

There is a massive difference between downloading and being the person uploading or promoting the spread of the download links....

What people need to get into their head is THEY DONT OWN THE MUSIC BANDS MAKE, THE BAND AND OR LABEL DO. Time and time again I have to get people to take our tracks down from YouTube, people who naively think they're somehow doing us a favour by making our music available for nothing (err doh, we realise YouTube exists and have been online since 1996...)

Sadly, even post the Illegal YouTube Videos thread quite a few members of this forum have been sharing the full Mithras albums on various forums and promoting the downloading of our albums for free using Rapidshare and Mediafire / Torrent links - don't they understand they're aiding the theft of our music? I can't work out why they'd do this, perhaps they think they're doing something cool by giving our music away for free or maybe they're just disgracefully thick...

I spoke to a certain guy the other day who was telling me that downloading is no worse than the 'home taping is killing music' debacle of the 80's which some of you have probably heard about or will remember. I found it quite bemusing a supposedly "genius level" guy couldn't see the difference between someone personally making a tape for a friend (or even copying a CD onto a CDR) and uploading rapidshare copies of albums and torrents which hundreds of people immediately have access to...

Anyway I'm instigating a new forum rule similar to that which they have on the Nile forum (seems Karl and me share a dislike for downloading...)

Anyone discovered promoting the illegal downloading of any Mithras music anywhere will be banned from the forum

How do you think teens did in the late 90's ? Back to this time my grand brother was just as old as you are now and started being in death and black metal, and though he had almost no money, he spent his entire money (which was really few at that time, maybe something like 100 or 150€ a year) in cds and t-shirts. You got to make choices : you can't afford to go to cinema, travel through the world, drink alcoohol AND buy music when you're a student.
How to be sure to buy a good album without downloading it ? Just as Leon said, listen to the samples !!! Ask anyone who started to listen to metal before the internet, he'll have tons of cd sample (I don't know the exact words in english, this is how we call it in french) he got by buying the magazines. Even with one or two songs, ANYONE can know if an album will be good or not, no need to download it ! The internet is the best way to discover brand new bands who wouldn't even have been mentioned in the white and grey pages of the most confidential fanzine, but even quite unknown bands were highlighted as long as their music was good (I discovered Mithras when WBTV went out, I didn't have the internet at that time), which had the virtuousness of letting the worst bands at the "garage level" they should never have left.

I fully agree with what Leon said, downloading and even worse, uploading music is the last thing you should do if you want to support a band.

As part of a webzine, I got to say that this shitty trend of free music made our task even harder, although some might think it didn't. It pissed labels really bad that some of those who write reviews ("reviewers" ? once more, I don't know the word) uploaded the albums weeks before they went out - which I totally understand, I don't blame labels for this. But the consequences were terrible : first we had voiceovers (just try to do a correct review when you hear YOU'RE LISTENING TO THE LAST THE BERZERKER ALBUM, ANIMOSITY, AVAILABLE ON EARACHE RECORDS every 40 seconds), then "bips", half of the songs, and now promotionnal copies are available in mp3 only (Relapse Records, Nuclear Blast...). Since the watermark technique doesn't really work, all the negative aspects are for the guy who writes the review only (as many people who listened to music before the internet, I HATE to listen to mp3), and the review isn't as precise/good as it should be. That's why part of webzines I know simply refuse the promotionnal mp3, and focus on the little labels which still send cds. As far as I'm concerned I don't review mp3 either, except when an unsigned band ask me to do so, and I only review the very good albums from the labels who use the mp3 when I buy them... which means the promotion isn't made as soon as it should be ! And unfortunately, webzines are the main metal media by now...
That's a minor problem compared to the loss of money bands and labels have to face, but unfortunately it also leads to bad repercutions on them...

I don't even know how some people I meet sometimes think they can support a band while only downloading it...They're simply killing it !

I laugh at the "but when you don't have that much money..." argument for illegal downloading. No arms, no cake. Or just cut down on beer.

If you're truly a music fan, you won't need to buy five albums every week. If you're a pathetic little wanker that listens to music just to impress or compete with your friends, on the other hand, you will need to.

Having no money is not an excuse. Any normal person's general outlook in life would be:

"If I can't afford to buy something, I will have to go without it".

People want everything for nothing and in doing so, ascribe no value to anything.

I still remember my joy at finding "IX Equilibrium" amongst lesser pop CD's in my local second hand CD shop, or getting my mum to give me a lift into town after school, so I could go into Spin-a-Disc (R.I.P) to ask them to order "Reek of Putrefaction" for me. I remember my £25 wage packet from my Saturday job and thinking "Now that I've paid for the train ticket into town, and bought those guitar strings, if I buy those chips, I won't be able to afford that "Dog Fashion Disco" album". I remember hanging about town with any empty stomach, but with the precious album in my possession. I remember seeing a girl with a "Burzum" T-shirt at a gig once and thinking, where on Earth does she get her albums from?! Heh, I remember FINALLY finding "Beneath The Remains" and going "Fucking Hell" as I instinctively snatched it and jealously guarded it in my hands, lest that other person also browsing the aisle wanted to buy it.

Now it's just an Amazon click away, or worse.

Fast food generation. McDonald's taste like shit, but people keep coming back becuase it's cheap and easy. I like to buy my burgers from Keith the butcher as he knows his trade and it tastes like MEAT everytime I eat it.

Think I have admitted in partaking in such events awhile back, but everything I have downloaded I own. Including three awesome mithras shirts!!! Downloading is gay anyhow.... Cd quality blows away crappy mp3's and having artwork, liners and lyrics makes the experience much more deeply felt.
Do what you need to do leon.... Us true fans will be here supporting and listening always

Some great points made here by many people.

It's funny what von_yaourt says about the reviewing process, we have a similar problem at ZT, a lot of the promo copies are all watermarked and voiceovered, and it just makes for a hilariously bad listen most of the time. Some of our reviewers nearly burst into tears when they find out it's a cd full of bleeps and silly voices.

Alright, I just registered to reply to this post after reading it. I'm probably going to get a lot of shit for this, but I want to show my point of view.

First of all, I have downloaded all 3 Mithras albums. Secondly, I own all 3, Mithras albums, and a t-shirt. I completely understand where Leon is coming from by saying that downloading is stealing (I don't agree), and the time that goes into writing an album exceeds the result of the finished album (yet alone getting to the point of creating music of that level.)

All of this is my point of view, and wont work for everyone.

My main argument for downloading music is that if a band makes a great album, I will buy it. There are few exceptions where I will buy an album without hearing it first (usually through downloading it). Mithras make great albums so I have no problem paying for them.

Can you honestly say that downloading is the only reason you don't sell as many albums. I have downloaded Mithras albums, and then bought it for being a good album. Because I like what I downloaded, I then show it to my friends. If they like it, they might buy an album or whatever in the future, if not, they probably wouldn't have heard of Mithras in the first place. There's so many bands at the minute that nobody can buy everything they see.

I guess the main point of this is that downloading isn't the problem, it's the people who download something they like and think "Free music!". I have met many people who say "What? You BOUGHT an album?!" These people are the problem.

Just posting my thoughts on the whole thing.

I subscribe to the philosophy of Celtic Frost's Tom Warrior.

Know you'll like it? Buy it.
Don't know? Download it, borrow it, look it up on youtube, whatever.
Liked it? Buy it.
Didn't? Delete it, give it back, don't look it up on youtube again, whatever.